February 3, 2010

Interstate 35 disappearances being investigated

Authorities in Iowa are working "on a possible connection" between the disappearance of Jon Lacina and two other missing men, Eric Peterson and Sylvester McCurry.
This news was picked up yesterday by Kristi Piehl on her website, sfkillers.com and also appeared on KCCI.com. According to the latter, "investigators said it is too early to say whether there may be any connection between the cases, but investigators are looking into them and not ruling out any possibilities."

It should be noted that all three college-age men disappeared during the same six-day period along Interstate 35. The city where each man was last seen was roughly 3 hours south of the previous disappearance:
  • 1/17/10: Sylvester McCurry, 18, Superior, WI
  • 1/19/10: Eric Peterson, 24, Lakeville, MN
  • 1/22/10: Jon Lacina, 21, Ames, IA
Sylvester McCurry vanished on January 17 after he was ejected from the Stargate Nightclub in Superior, Wisconsin. Bloodhounds tracked his scent to the hotel where he was staying for the night before the trail went cold. Two days later, on January 19, 24-year-old Eric Peterson disappeared. He was last seen at his home in Lakeville, Minnesota but his car was later found parked off I-35W in Bloomington, about 20 minutes away. Three days later on Jan. 22, 21-year old Jon Lacina disappeared after leaving a gathering at the Stanton Heights apartments on the Iowa State University campus in Ames, Iowa.

41 comments:

Monique777 said...

According to Google Maps:

Sly McCurry 1/17/2010 was 3.3 miles away from I-35 in Superior,WI (619 Tower Ave.)

164.3 miles on I-35 to get to Bloomington,MN

Eric Peterson 1/19/2010 was 0.5 miles from I-35 (11199 Lyndale Ave.)

200.6 miles to get to Ames,Iowa

James Lucina 1/22/10 was 4.7 miles from I-35 (300 Stanton Ave.)

So all men were less than 5 miles from I-35 and between 160-200 miles of eachother.
Sometimes I am unsure if I should be posting stuff like this for two reasons:
a) how will it effect the families of these men

b) who will read this information. If a chance exists there is a connection, am I satisfying him/them/her by giving this my attention.

Anyone else struggle with this?

BoyintheMachine said...

Honestly, I don't see a pattern, just coincidence.

However, I am glad they are paying more attention to these three disappearances and maybe they can bring the guys home safe and sound.

Craigs said...

I thought I would add this story to the list, because I've seen similar stories and comments referring to Canada and disappearances around I-94.

Paul Michael Foster, 28, last seen January 10.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/716248

Craigs said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Craigs said...

I did read about another missing college man from Mississippi.

"Lester R. Jones Jr., 26, was last seen in person by his brother early in the morning of Jan. 11..."

link: http://www.starkvilledailynews.com/content/view/197653/60/

Sam said...

boyinthemachine-

There has to be something to this. I mean, how often do we see investigators pusuing multiple missing student cases of young males as possibly connected across state lines? A possible perp's commute along highway 35 is a connection here. I wonder if they found anything else that raised suspicions or will find anything else.

Gotta note though, they're still missing. We have no idea where they are. It's really early to assume anything.

Monique - I'm stuggling with it too. Out of nowhere, news comes out that these three cases might be connected. Definitely curious as to what LE has, but definetely respect the privacy and initiative of the precincts to reach out to each other collaboratively in an attempt to solve what could possibly be going on.

Still hope all three are ok. As the days go by, the chances get slim. Since this report came out, hope kinda sunk.

This is a very confusing report.

My blessings to the families. Can't even imagine what they're going through.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Sam:

There is a word for a term, sorry can't recall it offhand, that refers to ability of people to see patterns where none exist.

There are other terms for various subtypes of this phenomenon, say for when people claim they see the blessed virgin on grilled-cheese sandwhich (or worse in bird droppings as a Texas family has claimed).

I believe this term applies here with these deaths or disapperances. People desperately want to solve these cases and so they contruct elaborate conspiracies or see connections and patterns that simply aren't there.

I feel for the friends and loved ones of the missing and hope the are found safe and sound, but I simply do not see anything at this point that could justify a belief that these deaths/disappearances are all conncted or commited by the same person or persons.

Perhpas in the future my thoughts will change if more substantial evidence is found, but as for now I believe these cases are tragic but not connected.

sfkillersinvestigations said...

What BITM is saying is nonsense. people see similarites becasue they know a lot of details about the cases . If there was a test I am sure I would pass with flying colors. It is lack of knowledge and seeing what you want to that is making many people skeptics.Don't start harrassing me on my blog because you don't like what i have to say either like you did with the you tube video.

sfkillersinvestigations said...

There is graffiti that says ash w and half . I know the cases really well so I know there were 2 victims found in Half Moon Lake in a short time frame. I also know of only 1 victim that could have been killed on ash wednesday.One of the victims found in half Moon Lake went missing on a day there was a Half moon. Garza was missing on ash wednesday and was found on a day there was a half moon. Now someone could call that seeing things that are not there but that would be a theory with serious flaws. There are only 2 days a month with a half moon. The odds are against being able to match a day with a half moon.So just who is seeing what they want to? The facts back up those that think there are patterns and the lazy people simply dismiss them.This is just one example I can make. BITM is dismissive without even analyzing or even scrutinizing the data .

BoyintheMachine said...

@ sfkillersinvestigations:

"What BITM is saying is nonsense. people see similarites becasue they know a lot of details about the cases . If there was a test I am sure I would pass with flying colors. It is lack of knowledge and seeing what you want to that is making many people skeptics.Don't start harrassing me on my blog because you don't like what i have to say either like you did with the you tube video."

What are you talking about?

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Sam:

I finally found the term:

Apophenia:

The experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data. The term was coined in 1958 by Klaus Conrad, who defined it as the "unmotivated seeing of connections" accompanied by a "specific experience of an abnormal meaningfulness".

http://tinyurl.com/2gdylj

Other relevent subsets are:

Confirmation Bias: Only accepting evidence that supports one's preconcieved idea and diregarding any evidence that disproves such.

Clustering Illusion: Falsely attibuting significance of a 'streak' or 'cluster' to a selection.

Hindsight Bias: Hard to communicate, but the best example is biblical prophecy, where believers insist that prophecy has come true when in reality believers are using hindsight bias in addition to confirmation bias, in order to claim that such prophecy was accurate.

For these drowning cases, someone might 'predict' a certain disappearance or strange drowning death, and usually in a vague manner. Say for example:

"I predict that another young man will go missing near I-35 in a couple of days."

What happens: 1 week later a young man goes missing approximately 25 miles from 1-35.

Believers claim the prediction is true when in reality it's just hindsight bias. On top of that it is also confirmation bias because they are ignoring the prediction was for "a couple of days" not a week, and that 'near I-35' is too vague. This example of a prediction turns out to be nothing of the sort.

Just a few things I personally feel that people reading this blog should be aware of. We human beings are all vulnerable to such.

Now, anybody who is pushing for the finding of these missing people have my full support. I deep thank you for anyone who is providing help in the searchers.

I sincerely hope these young men are found safe and sound.

Monique777 said...

BTIM

I may have agreed with you until LE made a public announcement that they are being investigated together and that they are swapping notes across state lines(WI,MN,IA) about these men.Juristictional sharing has to be time consuming. I would think LE is basing this idea on their past experience and education in dealing with missing persons cases and wouldn't be wasting their time doing this unless they had a pretty good inclination. I don't know if it's just I-35 or if there's more to it but they must feel strongly there is a possible connection to make this known to the public.

It's usually a pretty big deal for LE to announce this because they don't want to instill needless fear in comminities living near I-35, sink hope in the families of the victims needlessly or start rumors of a serial killer on the loose. While I would feel pretty confident all 3 of these men are not all connected (for my own reasons), I'm going to have to trust LE sees something more than I do here.

The more I think about it, the more surprised I am that they actually did announce a possible connection to the public instead of privately collaborating amoungst themselves.I wonder if it was some sort of "leak" or if they really are just that sure of themselves.

I just read up on patterns and how people rely heavily on patterns in their daily lives, most often times they, themselves, don't even notice they are unless they are trying to predict the stock market or are a physician making a diagnosis or a researcher looking at statistics for patterns and trends.
That set aside, I do see patterns with some of these missing/drowned men. The patterns are they are college-aged, athletic, disappear and end up in bodies of water.I also see geography patterns in that they often times go missing in NY or northern states. And that may seem meaningless to others, but not to me,as I think something needs to be addressed with this age group of men (18-25)for their safety.So, maybe there are varying degress of this apophenia?

supermanfliesme2 said...

I I think that someone is sitting in a car outside of these clubs, waiting for these young men to stumble out, intoxicated and alone. Then they pull up in their car and sympathetically offer them a ride, then the young men disoriented and just wanting to get home, accept the ride. Or maybe the person befriended them inside the bar, slipped something in their drink, left and then waited for them to exit the bar…approaching them in a “Hey, remember me?” fashion, and then offering them a ride.

It just seems to me, that a group of people jumping out of a van and forcing an athletically fit man inside would be very obvious or eye catching to anyone in the vicinity. Because from what I know of city streets esp. NY & Boston, there is always someone watching at some point, especially on a public street. However, one person (maybe working with a group of people behind the scenes i.e. someone inside the club drugs their drink and someone else offers the ride) sitting in a cab like car or befriending them in the bar, only to later offer them a ride home, is a little less likely to draw attention as something out of the ordinary. And it is less likely that the person being kidnapped would scream or put up a fight if they believe that a favor is being done. Then the victim most likely passes out in the car, on what they think is the ride home, at which point they are never seen or heard from again, all without a struggle so there are no signs of trauma to the victim’s body when they are dumped in the river. It just looks like they fell.

I know this scenario has probably been pointed out many times, but I have been reading this blog for a while and wanted to comment on what I thought. I don’t think that there is a gang riding around in a van a kidnapping these men, forcing them into vans and then tossing them off a bridge, that to me is too obvious and doesn’t explain why these men, who are so athletic and fit did not put up any type of a fight or at the very least scream which would draw peoples attention. I think that it is a group of very sick people similar to an underground society, choosing their victims, befriending them, drugging them, and then killing them. They always leave a way to connect the disappearances, but it’s not always as obvious as a smiley face, sometimes it is a street name where the victim’s clothes were found, sometimes it is something more even subtle. This way they can continue to kill and perhaps if the group is caught they can only be tied to a small number of murders because there is no actual link or perhaps because they know that as long as there is no definite and obvious evidence to link the disappearances the police will rule the deaths as accidental.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Monique777:

I understand your take but I think you are reading too much into that blog post.

It's only 'authorities' in Iowa who are investigating and they are only investigating the disappearance of the three men.

Also, if you read the blog again it's pretty clear they have nothing to suggest the disappearances are connected, instead the authorities are just wondering if the disappearancec might be connected and are going to due a cursory investiagion to see if they can find any connections.

osu11 said...

I guess I feel that some of these cases may in fact be related. Not all, but some. Maybe someone inside the bar, using something like Rohypnol, some of the missing men's described state was similar to being drugged. They could drug them and perhaps wait outside, offer them a ride that they may take if they were foggy. It sounds like it would be easy to place someone in body of water while under the influence of Rohypnol then that individual would drown. No trace of the drug. Remember Jeffrey Dahmer, some individuals just have a sick mind. This of course is JMO!

Monique777 said...

BITM

Right, that's exactly how I read it. "Iowa State is working with Ames Police and the State Division of Criminal Investigation on a possible connection with two other missing persons in the Midwest". I didn't think they were actually making the connection of the 3 men or ALL of these men but just looking at a possible connection.

And yes, I am still surprised they made this public.

Melissa said...

Has anyone ever thought about a connection between these disappearances and the railroad? There is a college age, young man last seen getting kicked out of a Denver Nuggets basketball game, and then was found 45 minutes NE of Denver on a railroad track. Just a thought?
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=132243&catid=188&GID=3GzjoCCirUHCn3I/CXa4O/nb4QAEfyu43rDPEJctr3g%3D

sfkillersinvestigations said...

I noticed the close proximity of railroads to some bars. I see trains in Clarksville with Wisconsin written on them when they go through. There are rails at the location Kambili Mouwka was at. There is also Philadelphia Cold Storage very close to that bar.Anyone can check the google map for themselves. It is just to the right of the z bar. Bryan Barker worked at Atlas cold storage. leadley worked for anixter which sells parts for air conditioners.The Clarksville drowning was when there was a week long air conditioning techniciam class at a trane corporation facility.

Rob said...

The unknown subject in these three cases follows the pattern of an ephbebophobe, a male who seduces teen and young adult males, excluding the 28 yo, the age range of the victims would 14 to 24. This unknown subject is going for the upper age limit of 18 to 24+. This type of unknown subject does not go after a male younger than 14. The unknown subject tends to want to have a victim that matches himself in intellect and would come across as non-threatening. Think professional, courteous, unassuming, possibly youngish say late 20's to early 40's.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Rob:

I have to admit I had to look up what "Ephbebophobe" was.

There are 3 major flaws in your theory:

1.) No proof the deaths/disappearances are connected.

2.) No sign of sexual assault

3.) According to Wikipedia, Ephbebophobe involves the sexual attraction toward females of 14-16 and males of 14-19. Most of these guys are in their 20's.

Ephebophilia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Melissa,

That story is weird. While reading it it immdiately dawned on me that so many of these guys were kicked out of bars.

I hate to come across are unsensitive, but people are thrown out of bars for disorderly conduct and violence. Of course, alcohol is the contributing factor for such. And yes, people need to realize that some people are violent drunks, even if they are not violent when they are sober.

In the Arnold case, it appears to me at least, that when he was kicked out he wandered to the train tracks and probably did hop aboard a train.

My intuition would be that when he sobered up a bit he tried to jump off the train but was killed. Sad.

sfkillersinvestigations said...

Sylvester Mcurry SUPERIOR ,Wisconsin

Eric Peterson LAKEville,Minnesota

1/22/10 Jon LACina

Craigs said...

Unless the serial killer is truly stalking his victims, I don't think their names have anything to do with it.

Although, it would be interesting to know if any of these men have similar online activities... games, frequent forums they visited, etc.

I would sooner think that if there is any significance to names, that it would be the names of the places, streets, towns, etc.

There are also a lot of clusters of men missing from certain areas. Canada has quite a few missing. Some have been found in water as well.

There have been some recent disappearances in southeastern states as well.

Rob said...

Boy--

With all due respect, you have the same age range of males going missing. Ephebophobes are attracted, that attraction does not have to be played out in a sexual assault. Your info from Wikipedia backs who we are talking about. The best information on this type of predator is from the University of Texas. The youngest victim so far is 18 most of these victims are early 20's.

Gannon and Duarte have pointed out in certain instances some of these victims were tortured (never elaborated on) BEFORE their deaths. Next, these abductions evidence power, domination, control and attraction to a certain type--an athletic, robust young male.

The idea of attraction is not neceassarily that the unknown subject is sexually assaulting the victim because that unknown subject is gaining satisfaction in another way such as possessing and controlling the life of the victims.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Rob,

I understand you believe these deaths are connected and are being commited by a person(s).

However, what I failed to properly communicate is that you are going to have to drop the "Ephebophobe" part because these guys don't fit it.

I think that term comes from the ancient Greeks who were basically homosexual child molesters and who preferred "beardless youths". Well, these guys don't fit that model.

If these guys are being murdered then they might be chosen for their youth, just not for that specific term. That's all.

The major problem I have, other than the lack of actual proof of connections between the deaths, is that there is no sexual assault.

In my opinion, if these are murders then it's not sexually motivated. There would have to be something else that is motivating the killer(s).

Rob said...

BIM

Wrong you are confusing pedophiles with a ephebophiles. There is a big difference.

The age range fits. The targeted victims in these disappearances and suspicious deaths is 18 to 24. One victim is outside the age range at 28.

These victims are athletic, in their prime and while, not necessarily male model types, this particular unknown subject who is preying on the victims, no women victims, is in the process of collecting these men albeit not for long.

The victimology, as set by Detectives Gannon and Duarte, suggests that these victims are held for a period elsewhere, killed at that location, taken to a body of water and dumped, in part to through off the cause of death, the time of death, DNA/forensic details. Gannon and Duarte go on to add that some of these victims give evidence of having been tortured--neither man has ever elaborated on the nature of that torture.

You sir have a misunderstanding of the nature of what an ephebophobe is. Those men are attracted young males, that does not mean that they are in the business of assaulting their victims. In some cases the unknown subject wants possession and control of the victim, that possession and control is sufficient to satisfy whatever reason the victim is victimized.

And that gets us to a well known fact since you brought it up. Child molesters are heterosexual men who prey on children. Those child victims are anywhere from 3 up to 12. There are a few who fall outside of that range going for younger and some older; however, child molesters by definition prefer prepubescent victims. Ephebophobes prefer pubescent and post pubescent ones. Don't ever confuse the two. The worst of the latter lot are collectors. They hold their victims for a period of time. Most do not kill. The ones that do have already selected a new victim while still holding the present one.

Wikipedia may be a wonderful general online resource of general knowledge but is hardly definitive or consistent since readers can add to the information on any article, true it is arbritated, but that arbritation is only as good as the knowledge of the editor/monitor.

Until you actually come up with some better theory, this is but one possibility. There is no proof of a gang roving and kidnapping a group of like victims. Nor is there a phenomenon that causes college age men to attend parties or a bar with friends, on mostly winter nights, leave the bar and decide to walk on water or commit suicide. At best, this is the work of one or two individuals. There is some kind of attraction or reason for targeting college age men, mostly described as fit, and generally, good students. That sir is the victimology. It suggests that the unknown subject has a morbid attraction for the college age, fit, male victims. A roving group would be easy to spot and gets sloppy, etc.

We all await your theory BIM.

Rob said...

BIM writes, "The major problem I have, other than the lack of actual proof of connections between the deaths, is that there is no sexual assault." And you know this for a fact how? Officialdom has released no information.

Gannon and Duarte have been closed mouthed about most details of how these victims are found. In one instance, the two detectives described torture having been inflicted. Other details have been purposely withheld by the authorities. There is some suggestion that the victims may have been slipped a drug like GHB or another, so called date rape drug. Those drugs are colorless, ordorless, and tasteless. GHB can be had in tablet or liquid form. That would be done to overpower the victim--possession and control. Wow! the unknown subject doesn't want trouble from his victim.

Anymore brillant observations?

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Rob,

"Wrong you are confusing pedophiles with a ephebophiles. There is a big difference."

No, you seem to be making up your own definition of ephebophiles means.

If the person is a minor, below the age of consent, then it is child molestation.

"The age range fits. The targeted victims in these disappearances and suspicious deaths is 18 to 24. One victim is outside the age range at 28."

But that's not what ephobephilia is. The age ranges listed are 14-19, not people in the 20's.

This is why ia suggested dropping the term ephobephilia.

"You sir have a misunderstanding of the nature of what an ephebophobe is. Those men are attracted young males, that does not mean that they are in the business of assaulting their victims."

Ephebophilia is the sexual preference for young men and women, with men ranging from 14-19. Key here is sexual preference.

"Child molesters are heterosexual men who prey on children."

Or homosexual men who prey on children.

"...child molesters by definition prefer prepubescent victims. Ephebophobes prefer pubescent and post pubescent ones. Don't ever confuse the two."

Any sexual activity between an adult and a minor is child molestation, if the minor has not yet reached the age of consenst. This age varies from locations but the youngest seems to be around 16-18 years of age.


"Wikipedia may be a wonderful general online resource of general knowledge but is hardly definitive or consistent since readers can add to the information on any article, true it is arbritated, but that arbritation is only as good as the knowledge of the editor/monitor."

The Wikipedia article on Ephebophilia is sourced and referenced. There is no excuse to deny it simply because one wants to make up their own defintiion of ephebophilia.

"Until you actually come up with some better theory, this is but one possibility. There is no proof of a gang roving and kidnapping a group of like victims. Nor is there a phenomenon that causes college age men to attend parties or a bar with friends, on mostly winter nights, leave the bar and decide to walk on water or commit suicide. At best, this is the work of one or two individuals. There is some kind of attraction or reason for targeting college age men, mostly described as fit, and generally, good students. That sir is the victimology. It suggests that the unknown subject has a morbid attraction for the college age, fit, male victims. A roving group would be easy to spot and gets sloppy, etc.

We all await your theory BIM"

Law enforcement and the FBI have rejected the smiley face killer theory due to lack of evidence.

There is no better theory at this point other than the actual rulingsin the death, accidental and suicide.

BoyintheMachine said...

"Gannon and Duarte have been closed mouthed about most details of how these victims are found. In one instance, the two detectives described torture having been inflicted. Other details have been purposely withheld by the authorities. There is some suggestion that the victims may have been slipped a drug like GHB or another, so called date rape drug. Those drugs are colorless, ordorless, and tasteless. GHB can be had in tablet or liquid form. That would be done to overpower the victim--possession and control. Wow! the unknown subject doesn't want trouble from his victim.

Anymore brillant observations?"


Yes, small amounts of GHB are naturlaly produced as a part of the decomposition process.

Also, If my memory serves me, Gannon claimed that there would be a breakthrough in december/january of this year, one in which suspects would be named. Did anybody else forget about that?

It's now February.

A couple of the victims do appear to have been murdered and possess evidence of being tortured, However, most do not. Most show NO sign of torture.

Some of the deaths appear to be suicides, but don't let this stop true believers. True believers discount the fact that anyone would commit suicide, even though the suicide rate is high for this age group, even compounded if the person is homosexual. True believers even discount the effects of alcohol, pretending as if it's not a drug. True believers discount these guys getting kicked out of bars for disorderly conduct or violence/threats of violence. They seemingly ignore that such is a classic sign of being too intoxicated.

As of right now, there isn't any evidence suggisting these deaths are connected.

It's called Confirmation Bias, believing what you want or that which supports your preconcieved views while rejecting any evidence that disproves it.

Perhaps there is a killer but it boggles the mind that for 20+ years now they have gotten away with hundreds of deaths w/out once messing up or being seen by witnesses.

I'm open-minded, but we need evidence not theories. -And that is what the FBI reportedly told Gannon and Duarte.

Rob said...

Where Bim did you ever get the idea that pedophiles are homosexual men? They are heterosexual predators and tend to be individuals molested themselves as children.

As for ephebophobes the age range does fit. See the University of Texas study.

You need to spend less time trying to write a book and more time looking for patterns. I will stick with Gannon and Duarte's victimology. I do not subscribe to their original hypothesis of a gang of serial killers. One or two individuals makes more sense. Males of a certain age range--the upper limits of which are consistent with the victims of ephebophobes. In the cases at hand, not one victim is female. There is a morbid attraction for the unsub to young, college-age men. One victim, the medical student is outside the usual victim age at 28. His death may not be connected.

You have no monoply on who and what is motivating the unsub and from where I am sitting you have no theory, but you are sure quick to knock down any opinion anyone else has. To the best of my knowledge, you have no information from officialdom on all the details of the victims from a valid post mortem only your own bias and just recently homophobia. Actual pedophiles prefer underage victims, not near adult age ones and those victimizers are heterosexual men. I should know I have had to lock up my share of them.

Rob said...

Boy--

I don't remember ever discounting suicide. You on the other hand are quick to promote that viewpoint.

As for the victim in NY found some distance from his intended destination, his college of attendance at Manhattanville, most suicides are not going to drive a hundred miles out of the way to do themselves in. The watery resting place of the victim's car is suggestive of staging.

A police spokesman suggesting suicide prior to the ME's official cause of death as found in a conducted post mortem is the ending word. I have seen no statement from the ME in that victim's case. Until and unless it is made public, that police spokesman can tell us the Moon is made from cheese which does not make a fact. If you dig, he most likely said something to the effect that the victim's death was questionable at best.

The victimology stands in the majority of these deaths, there are some that do not seem to fit the pattern.

An expert has conducted a survey surrounding the Smiley Face Murders. The pattern is always the same--East to West, West to East, then North to South along one corridor Interstate 94 in one instance. As for the FBI, Behavorial Anlaysis Unit being out of the loop on this, don't bet on it. These victims are targeted in some way, not happenstance.

So, Boy what is your hypothesis. We wait.

Rob said...

Bim unwisely states without checking first,"[l]aw enforcement and the FBI have rejected the smiley face killer theory due to lack of evidence."

Well, to that brillant observation I say Bullshit. Two of the deaths have been reclassified as homicides.

Chris Jenkins death--his abduction was observed; it was reported he had been tortured in some way, and the body dumped in water, with evidence of having been moved twice. Suicides don't, typically, get up after death and move themselves to another spot.

Josh Szsostak--his death was reclassed as a homicide.

Patrick McNeill--1st victim; his parents bitched enough to the NY Attorney General's Office at the instance of the homicide detectives. They hired Dr. Cyril Wecht to conduct a new post mortem. No water was found in his lungs. Dr. Wecht had preserved tissue slides and the exhumed corpse to work from.

The police chief in LaCrosse, Wisconsin where a cluster of deaths occurred finally backed off his bias for accidental death from alcohol and possible suicide. There are insiders who believe that cases have been reopened.

So, my friend you can take your "Bias" finding and shove it. The claim of There are legitimate patterns in these deaths that lead to anything but suicide to questionable deaths.

You write, "A couple of the victims do appear to have been murdered and possess evidence of being tortured, However, most do not. Most show NO sign of torture." I wouldn't be so sure to dismiss that Sherlock. If a body has been in water long enough, water absorbing into the skin layers distorts appearance, not to mention wear and tear by water action, the corpse snagging on debris in the water, and feeding by river life. Unless, the ME is experienced and knows what to look for, signs of foul play are easily overlooked.
I am surprised you didn't know that.

As for Wikipedia being referenced, some references are better than others. It does not change Wikipedia's methodology which is to invite contributions from readers like us. Any reader can add to to ask that information be taken away from any entry. That is why it is arbritated by an editor/monitor.

A definitive source, around for years and, now, in online format is the Encyclopedia Britannica. It's entries are fully vetted before going online and then there are the various handbooks available to forensics investigators and surgeons who conduct post mortems. I will rely on those and the authoritative University of Texas study which is used by mandatory reporters across the United States.

Anything else?

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Rob,

"An expert has conducted a survey surrounding the Smiley Face Murders. The pattern is always the same--East to West, West to East, then North to South along one corridor Interstate 94"

That's Prof. Gilbertson and his theories were different from Gannon & Duearte's "smiley face killer theory".

Also, you do realize that Gannan & Duarte believe it is a gang or group of people doing the murders, don't you. This would contradict your belief in one or two killers.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Roy,

"Bim unwisely states without checking first,"[l]aw enforcement and the FBI have rejected the smiley face killer theory due to lack of evidence."

Well, to that brillant observation I say Bullshit. Two of the deaths have been reclassified as homicides."

One of the deaths has been changed to homicide. Another death may be changed to homicide in the near future.

The Smiley Face Killer Theory has been rejected by both local Law Enforcement and the FBI. It is not being pursued as a possible reality by law enforcement or the FBI.

"Josh Szsostak--his death was reclassed as a homicide."

No it wasn't. Look it up.

"Patrick McNeill--1st victim; his parents bitched enough to the NY Attorney General's Office at the instance of the homicide detectives. They hired Dr. Cyril Wecht to conduct a new post mortem. No water was found in his lungs. Dr. Wecht had preserved tissue slides and the exhumed corpse to work from."

Currently Chris Jenkins is the only death to have been ruled a homicide. In the future, Patrick McNeil might be reclassified as well.

"As for Wikipedia being referenced, some references are better than others. It does not change Wikipedia's methodology which is to invite contributions from readers like us. Any reader can add to to ask that information be taken away from any entry. That is why it is arbritated by an editor/monitor."

It doesn't matter if Wikipedia can be edited by people. All that counts is if the information from which it comes from is sourced or referenced. Stop denying it simply because you want to create your own definition of Ephebophilia.

"Anything else?"

1.) Yeah, get a clue. You are grasping at straws.

2.) It's called "fact-checking". You need to do this before stating somehting is a fact. You've been proven wrong several times.

3.) It's called Apophenia. Look it up.

4.) Look up Confirmation Bias as well.

Rob said...

BIM--

You don't read closely do you?

I have said several times that this is not the work of a roving gang. What I said was one or two individuals. Not exactly, a contradiction because one of the two retired detectives does not go along with the murdering gang hypothesis. Next, Gannon and Duarte have findings for 40 of the victims, not the nearly 100 or so.

Yeap, Dr. Gilbertson. He identified the East to West, West to East, North to South pattern. He has worked with law enforcement many times. I also said Interstate 94 was but one instance of a pattern.

BoyintheMachine said...

"You don't read closely do you?

I have said several times that this is not the work of a roving gang. What I said was one or two individuals. Not exactly, a contradiction because one of the two retired detectives does not go along with the murdering gang hypothesis. Next, Gannon and Duarte have findings for 40 of the victims, not the nearly 100 or so.

Yeap, Dr. Gilbertson. He identified the East to West, West to East, North to South pattern. He has worked with law enforcement many times. I also said Interstate 94 was but one instance of a pattern."

Yes, you have wrote that you don't believe in a gang or group of killers. Guess what? That belief contradicts the smiley face killers theory.

In my opinion,

These deaths are unusual. Some of the deaths are suicides. Some are accidents. And some might be murders, however there's no evidence the murders might be connected.

If some of these deaths are murders then the killer(s) deserve to be brought to justice.

Rob said...

You mischaracterize anything that does not fit your SCENARIO which seems to slip and slide when confronted with other information.

The fact remains that 2 deaths were reclassified. That is a point you never made clear until now. The fact is Dr. Wecht went to work as a forensics expert for one of the families. His opinion changed a caused of death and reopened the victim's case.

I couldn't careless if Wikipedia is referenced, the fact is its entries are subject to change with minimal notice and bias of the parties contributing to it. Moreover, it is undergoing a crisis.

You want definitive information go to the source. The University of Texas study is the authoritative one on the nature of male sexual assaults.

I submit sir you are a homophobe and tried to mischaracterize the nature of the victimizers in true pedophilia cases.

The victims fit the pattern of the upper age range of ephebophobe victims wether you like it or not; therefore, it is one possibility to continue to be considered. Next, the LaCrosse police chief had to retract his statement--he's dealing with a cluster of these deaths. Personally, I don't give a fig if you like the hypothesis of Gannon and Duarte, at least, they have a theory. Furthermore, I don't believe anyone in this blog has said that he/she entirely agrees with either Gannon or Duarte. I sure don't, but then, those two men have a victimology; you have proposed no contrary victimology, but you sure do get cranky when your pet theory, and it is a theory, that most of these victims have died by suicide or accidental death.

You have an incomplete source in Wikipedia. It is not considered thoroughly reliable. In fact, there have been quite a few squabbles over entry content, etc.; however, high school kids and college students gravitate to it because it is available and does not require effort to use until set right by responsible teachers and professors.

I have locked up enough pedophiles to know the difference between them, their victims, and their victimology versus that of ephebophobes. If you stop your quest for what an ephebophobe is or does at Wikipedia, I submit you are guilty of Confirmation Bias, the flag you fly in the face of others with an opinion.

Sorry you are naive enough to believe that the FBI BAU is not investigating with local law enforcement. There is enough of a pattern that those folks do consult and without letting the public know in every instance.

As for Confirmation Bias, look to your own house my friend because it is on a weak foundation.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Rob,

"I submit sir you are a homophobe.."

I'm tired of your crap, Rob. I won't be replying to any more of your silly, uninformed comments.

Rob said...

Bim--

Too bad you feel that way Sherlock.

You are the one who mischaracterized what pedophiles are--you called them homosexuals. I will burst your bubble there. They aren't. They are heterosexual men.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Rob,

Okay, I said I wasn't going to respond, but when you spread lies, I am forced to.

I never stated that pedophiles were specifically homosexual. Intead I stated that some pedophiles are homosexual and of course abuse vicitms of the same sex, just like the heterosexual child molesters who abuse children of the opposite gender. Then we have the equal offenders who will abuse children regardless of gender.

Now, please, stop putting words into my mouth.

Rob said...

At last, some point on which we both agree--don't mischaracterize remarks. It's not kosher. I have suggestion for you as well. You don't care for the serial killer label, but there are some who see that pattern in the disappearances and deaths so far. Live and let live.

Now, you never did respond to what a corpse is like, in a drowning case. Sometimes the drowning victim is immediately recovered; other times it may be weeks or months. Water does have an effect on a corpse. And when a police officer says "There are no signs of foul play" at the scene, it is a mere unsubstantiated opinion because only the ME can determine the cause of death after conducting a valid, thorough post mortem and issuing a finding. Even then, if the ME is a part-time employee of the jurisdiction, he or she, may not be experienced enough to have issued a valid finding of cause of death. For example, some part-time ME's don't order complete lab results on blood and other bodily fluids if they feel a car accident killed the victim, or the victim fell from a building. When family presses for answers and another doctor enters with a forensics background and asks for those results, well drugs or poisons are found and causes of death are changed. Happens. So, when victim families and friends are saying the deceased had everything to live for and no setbacks such as loss of a girlfriend, close family member, or friend; loss of money, status, job, or other esteem factor, that is worthy of notice because that indicates state of mind at the time of death and leads to asking lots of questions about who these victims were with when last seen, what was said, time involved, etc.

At that is where things stand here.

Both theories have value.