March 17, 2010

03/13/10: Greg Hart, 23, Providence, RI

On March 13, 2010, after getting a late start, Gregory Hart, 23, drove his Mustang from Dedham, MA, to the apartment of a friend in Providence, RI. There, he met up with three old college buddies--Will, Zach, and Zach's girlfriend--to celebrate his new job. By 10 p.m., the group was heading out to the Red Room Tavern at One Fox Place in Providence.

At 1:21 a.m., Hart spoke on the phone with Will, who was at the bar that night. The two spoke for 8 minutes, but it has not been reported what was said. It was the last time Hart's phone was used.

Friends say that around 1:40 p.m., Greg just got up and left the tavern without saying a word. Nothing unusual appeared to be going on, but Hart left the bar (FOX 25 / MyFoxBoston.com, March 15, 2010).

Friends initially speculated that while they returned to their apartment, Hart may have gone to an International House of Pancakes (IHOP) on Promenade Street. But Hart's brother, JP, later told the Providence Journal that this wasn't likely. While he and his brother had indeed sometimes walked from the Red Room to the IHOP, it had been in the summer. Family members did not believe Greg would have walked to the pancake house in the rain, and there appears to be no indication that he did so. (Providence Journal).

Cell phone records indicate that, at some point, Hart's friend, Zach, tried calling Greg's phone (along with the police and local hospitals) to find out what happened to his friend.

Hart's family remained uneasy; Greg Hart's car was still parked outside the apartment building where he had left it, and his cell phone had not been answered.

By Sunday when he still hadn't returned for the St. Patrick's Day parade, they became "seriously worried" and they filed a missing person's report. (Boston.com.)


The Search for Greg Hart
Initially, police did not look for the missing University of Massachusetts-Amherst student.

When the police failed to search, family and friends of Greg Hart launched their own search effort. More than 50 people came to the aid of the Hart family, helping to look for Hart and/or post fliers around the area.

On Tuesday, March 16 at around 2:45 p.m., a family friend made a grim discovery just three-quarters of a mile from where Hart had last been seen. Hart's body was found washed up against a tree limb in the rain-swollen Woonasqatucket River in Providence, “half in and half out” of the water (ABC6.com). It was recovered by rescue crews from the Providence Fire Department.


Investigation
From the beginning, the Hart family expressed fears that foul play might be involved with Hart's death. Hart was a licensed and experienced scuba diver and very familiar with the water. There had also been reports that some type of disturbance or altercation had occurred at the bar on the night that Greg Hart disappeared.

"When a sudden death happens in an unusual place under unusual circumstances, it’s suspicious."
- Maj. Thomas F. Oates III, Providence Police Department
But an autopsy conducted by the Rhode Island Medical Examiner's office on March 17, indicated that Hart's death was a drowning and did not appear suspicious.

Yet, police said they would continue to investigate and treat the death as suspicious. "When a sudden death happens in an unusual place under unusual circumstances," said "Maj. Thomas F. Oates III, commander of the department’s investigative division, "it’s suspicious." (The Providence Journal, March 20, 2010).

On March 23, the medical examiner announced that Hart had been "highly intoxicated." The blood alcohol level was not released, but John Hart told the Providence Journal that investigators told him that his son's blood-alcohol level was more than .25. This is more than three times the legal limit of .08 for driving in Rhode Island. According to research by the paper, "most with levels between .21 and .29 would be subject to memory blackouts, staggering, double vision, loss of understanding of surroundings, poor judgment, impaired reactions and loss of balance."

Also at that time, police announced that they had found no evidence to suggest Hart had been involved in a fight. However, Hart's family said Hart's body had numerous injuries that suggested he had been in a fight, including: a broken cheekbone, jaw, eye socket, chipped tooth, cuts on his lips and knuckles, injuries to his palm and bruises on both legs in the same location. The family believes he was beaten up, possibly murdered.

Hart's father also said he believes a search should have been launched by the police after they heard about the possible disturbance at the bar.

The medical examiner addressed the family's concerns two days later, stating that any injuries found on Gregory Hart's body were caused after he drowned. His body had been in the fast- flowing Woonasquatucket River for an estimated 2-3 days. The Providence Police Department and the medical examiner maintained that there were no signs of foul play.


Private investigation by Hart family
The Hart family has hired an attorney to investigate the handling of the investigation. Police stand behind their investigation and say it was thorough, but the family has reported that the following areas are of particular concern:

Potential Conflict of Interest
Providence detective, Mark Sacco, who began investigating the case one day before Hart was found owns the property that the Red Room bar sits on. The bar itself is owned by Rebecca Caroll, the wife of Providence police detective, Shawn Carroll. The family of Greg Hart feels that this is a conflict of interest. In addition, there are no records of potential witnesses at the bar (e.g., bouncers, bartenders) ever having been interviewed by the police (ABC6.com).

Possible altercation at the bar

A police report, according to ABC6, says a disturbance of some kind (it is not known when or what type), occurred shortly before Greg disappeared. Hart's body had also suffered the type of injuries that may be indicative of a fight (broken facial bones, chipped tooth, cuts on lips and knuckles, bruising on palm and legs.) There were also two bruises in the same place on each leg, possibly caused by restraining Greg Hart.

Inconsistencies with police reports
The initial police incident report from March 14, states that police found Hart's cell phone and a house key in the bar’s parking lot. The report also states that police called his cellphone at that time and that it rang several times before going to voicemail. A police report two days later said that Hart's phone was found in the water along with Hart's partially submerged body and his driver's license.

Hart's Shattered iPhone
The police returned Hart's iPhone to the family in approximately 5 pieces. Officers told the family that even State Police experts were unable to retrieve any information from it because it had been in the water. However, technicians at AT&T told the Hart family that it had been taken apart in such a way that no information could be retrieved (ABC6.com).

Damaged indicator on iPhone
"This [phone] definitely wasn't in the water, definitely, 100 percent, this was not in the water."
- Alfred Demirjian, data recovery expert
The Hart family was able to take the phone to data recovery experts at TechFusion. The company found that the phone could not possibly have been in contact with water, as stated in the police report. The style of the Apple iPhone that Hart had is equipped with tiny indicators deep in the phone that signal whether the phone had been submerged in water or a liquid. According to Alexander Gessen, a data recovery expert at the company, Apple has installed these indicators in order to help determine whether the phone has been submerged or come into contact with a liquid that might void the warranty. Evidence indicates that the indicator on Hart's phone, something very difficult to remove, had been intentionally scratched off.

Alfred Demirjian, a data recovery expert at the company said, "This definitely wasn't in the water, definitely, 100 percent, this was not in the water." (Boston.com, 11/1/10).

Data Recovery from Cell Phone
TechFusion was also able to rebuild Hart's phone and compare the text messages and phone logs to AT&T's cell phone logs to authenticate them. The data included a log of the last 100 calls and the contents of the final 599 text messages, which indicate that the iPhone was not in the water. The family has declined to release the contents of the recovered data for fear of compromising any criminal case that may come from it.

Length of Time in Water
A white shirt returned to the family seems to be more river-stained than the shirt that Hart was wearing over it. The family has also said that the body itself was not as waterlogged as it should have been after 48 hours in the water.

About Greg Hart
Providence Police Lt. George Stamatakos described Hart as “a nice kid with a great family." Gregory Hart had just moved to Dedham, Massachusetts. He was a cum laude graduate of the University of Massachusetts-Amherst where he had studied economics and tutored students, and had been accepted into an officer's program to be a Navy fighter pilot. Relatives attributed his success to his hard work in school after receiving below-average grades his freshman year in college. He had just landed a new job at Meditech in Westwood, MA--a job that would give him some real money for the first time, according to ABC6.com--and he was scheduled to begin work on Monday, March 15. He was not typically a late-night partier.

The news has devasted his family. "He's my heart. I can't even function. Nothing's important anymore," said his mother, Marianne Hart, told the Providence Journal. Hart’s father said his son was his “best friend.” Relatives say he was also kind and generous, spending much of last year caring for his mother during breast cancer treatment.

Greg Hart will be sorely missed. Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family.

Facts:
Name/age: Greg Hart, 23
College: University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Last seen: 03/13/10, Red Room Tavern, One Fox Place, Providence, RI
Recovered: 03/16/10, Woonasqatucket River, Providence, RI
Residence: Dedham, MA
Physical Description: 5’8,” brown hair. He was last seen downtown Sunday morning wearing a grey leather biker jacket, a green hooded sweatshirt, black pants and black shoes.

83 comments:

BoyintheMachine said...

So it appears there's discrepancies as to what occured, was he involved in a fight or did he go to I-Hop?

How close is the river to the bar?

How far away is the I-Hop? -Is it close enought for him to walk? Could he have wandered into the river intoxicated trying to get to the I-Hop?

At least we should know soon as to his BAC. If anybody can answer my other questions, it would be much appreciated.

Jamie said...

The IHOP was close enough to walk...it's 0.6 miles away across the river...you'd just go over Dean St. to get to it (which crosses over the river).

Qwerty said...

I plugged a lot of the writeups here into google maps, and kept finding amtrak (one union pacific) stations in walking distance. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy nut, or direct my comment at any specific case - so please take my observation at face value.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Jamie

So he could of walked to IHOP and he would have had to cross the river? If so then it might be accidental but of course we will have to see how it develops. I wonder if there were cameras in the area?

Monique777 said...

@BITM

They are treated it as suspicious right now. One report said Greg's body was found part way in the river. The ME has determined there was water in his lungs and bruises on his fists but hasn't released a cause of death yet.

Here we go again with discrepant media reports!
There is one video report showing an interview with his female friend who was at the bar with him that night saying Greg got up to leave without saying a word. There is another report (written) that says the bartender tossed Greg out after he had been in a fight.

Now there is the I-HOP report.

Interesting the bar is owned by a cop's wife.

cherish said...

I'm just making mention that Lei Deng, 26, was last seen around 8 a.m. Friday in Hart Hall.

Now the Providence young man who was found drowned.... his last name is Hart.


I left this comment under 010/03/031210-lei-deng-26-oswego's post:

I just noticed that the victims last names in January are "L","M","P", and that the states were "I","W","M". That same pattern repeats with the victims in February.

( With the exception of Bryce Tarter)

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Cherish

Someone who posted here left a link to a forum where he speculated that the victims were chosen based on "the name game" with regard to animals, as in a good majority had names that referenced animals. Well, "Hart" is a male deer.

I think people have the best intentions but anybody can find any number of coincidences in anything. It doesn't have any deeper meaning other than synchronicity.

For example, Charles Fort documented weird coincidence, such as a reported shower of eggs that fell on a Hatch Middle School in England. Or in a related case a man with the last name of Hershey actually fell into a vat of chocolate at a candy facotry and died. Fort called it "The Cosmic Trickster", but in reality it's just synchronicity.

Synchronicity
http://tinyurl.com/d2jqb

BoyintheMachine said...

Providence Police Department Taking Heat in Suspicious Death
http://tinyurl.com/yg3pn8v

Providence police under scrutiny by family of dead man: family offers $20,000 reward for information
http://tinyurl.com/yzec8nv

RI police say Mass. man's death 'suspicious'
http://tinyurl.com/yk2v3f3

Monique777 said...

Greg Hart appeared to have drowned and showed no evidence of foul play, according to a prelim. autopsy report by the state ME. They are still waiting on pending toxicology results.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2010/03/
preliminary-autopsy-no-sign-of.html

BoyintheMachine said...

Here's a corrected link of the one provided by Monique.

http://tinyurl.com/ylbkneh

(The one she posted led to a page where one had to scroll down to the "p" section, find the correct link there and then click on it.)

BoyintheMachine said...

***Off Topic Post****

I hate to put personal comments here but my best friend just called me and told me that her Grandmother just passed. She was a wonderful woman.

On top of this, over the last three years I have lost three friends. I feel like death surrounds me and it's making me question my own mortality.

I just wanted to express my feelings of sadness and sympathy for the families and friends of the missing and the deceased as listed here on this site.

I also would like to send a big "Thank You" to Lisa for creating and maintaining this blog.

Monique777 said...

There is nothing wrong with the link posted. I just typed it in again and up came the article. Also posted at SFK and no problems. Anyone have trouble with the link?

I remember you had trouble with a different link recently posted that someone converted into tiny url for you.
Maybe computer trouble?

Monique777 said...

@BITM

I am so sorry to hear of your losses over the past 3 years. 3 friends is a lot. I can sure relate and every time there is a new loss it triggers all the past losses. I'll include you and all the families here in my prayers tonight.

And YES, Thank You Lisa for all your hard work in maintaining such a great site. Your efforts are highly appreciated.

Monique777 said...

Greg Hart's family shares more about him starting his new job and his personality. The family believes Greg was murdered.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2010/03/
by-amanda-milkovits-journal-st.html

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Monique777

Thank you for your concern and prayers.

The other link you posted simply gave the 403-error. This link when I post it in my browser it comes upt to a page that lists links for every blog entry on that blog and you have to scroll down to find the correct link to clink on. When I put it through tinyurl it works fine.

And yes, I recommended in the past that everyone should be using tinyurl or else embed the link in the post. (If you notice on sfkillers.com, if someone posts a link too long it will go way off the comment page. It doesn't do that here but it just makes it easier for everyone to view the pages as sometimes long links are broken or get uncopyable for some reason.)

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Monique777

I think I just solved the mystery...

Here's your link:

http://newsblog.projo.com/2010/03/
by-amanda-milkovits-journal-st.html

Now, when I copy it and post it my browser it transforms it to this:

http://newsblog.projo.com/2010/03/

And yes, I copied the complete link but for some reason my browser drops off that last part. If I converted the link to tinyurl it works fine. Strange.

Monique777 said...

I have wanted to start tiny url but a few people I know have had some trouble with it. Most people rave about it because it does make it easier but going to have to research it a little more before using it. I seriously already have way too many computer gliches. (XP on a Vista Motherboard=problems even though technically there "shouldn't be any problems")

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Monique777

Trouble with tinyurl? You don't install anything. You just copy the link and then past in into the field and hit the button and then it converts it into a new shorter link. I think it's wonderful. If it required downloading anything then I definitely wouldn't use it, but it doesn't.

Lisa said...

@ Boy in the Machine,

I am so sorry to hear about your losses this past year. It can be overwhelming to feel so
surrounded by death. Thank you for sharing your feelings of sympathy with the families and friends reading this site.

Hearing about or experiencing death does get us thinking about our own mortality, which can be terrifying. I try to remind myself that in some cultures and religions, death is not viewed as something to be scared of; yet I still have a hard time convincing myself not to worry. Death can be a wake up call not to waste the precious and all-too short time we are given. It makes us appreciate life--and each other--more; and I think that makes it easier for us to let go in the end. Yet, no matter how we rationalize it, it is never easy to be left behind in death's wake. Love and support from others is so crucial!

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Lisa,

Thank you and I completely agree. What's important is how we spend our remaining time with the ones we love.

Personally, I'm not scared of death. Dying is easy. It's living that's hard.

BoyintheMachine said...

Update on info...

Basically the Medical Examiner has ruled that Greg Hart died by drowning in circumstances that do not appear suspicious, however the cops are continuing to treat the death as suspicious at this time.

ME rules Mass. man drowned in Providence river

http://tinyurl.com/yk5zeqn

Also, if you read the comments it appears as if the rumor that the friend who found his body in the river where the same friends out with him the night he disappeared is completely false.

anthony said...

when is this ever gonna stop?

Brittany L. Hammond said...

What I found most interesting about this case is that the family is being very vocal in pointing out what the police seem to be ignoring, the injuries that indicate foul play-or atleast that he was in some way attacked before his death. As for the medical reports drowning is drowning, no matter how it happens. Sometimes autopsies don't reveal murder or homicide. Let's say that someone's tossed off or push off a bridge that they've been walking on, and they struggle in the water, is the autopsy going to miraculously tell the truth of how that someone ended up in the river, no it's simply going to reveal that once they ended up in the river they drowned. The damage to lungs,etc. what have you is just going to reveal that they drowned, not that they're was a struggle beforehand, because unlike other methods of death-the more violent methods such as stabbing, being shot, etc. with no witnesses except for a killer or killers and the person who died there's no foolproof way of knowing if that person was a victim of foul play. Also going along those same lines if that someone were tossed/died while they were unconscious in the river, unless there was external bleeding-for example as the reason they were unconscious(which would show up in an autopsy,right?), how would medical tests, that is the autopsy even reveal whether that someone went into the river while they were fully conscious. In Greg Hart's case the cops and apparently the people who performed the autopsy are saying that the injuries that he may have sustained, which is why his family is speaking out so vocally in a few articles I've read, like this one here http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100321family_suspects_foul_play_in_dedham_mans_death_in_ri/, weren't life-threatening and that there's really no way to know when or how he got those bruises and injuries. Personally I know that if those bruises were on a girl and no one around her was confessing, and she ended up in a river, because as it seems none of his friends has come forward saying yeah he got those bruises a couple of days ago, this is what happened then,etc. because as many people, not just friends, as one person knows if they had injuries like that before they disappeared it would've already been shed to light, that is if in fact they existed/occured whether right before he dissapeared or a few hours before or days before by now by someone who had seen him with those cuts or bruises on his face would have come forward by now.
-Lee (with a different e-mail than before). What do you think Lisa?

Laurie said...

http://www.projo.com/news/content/hart_death_23_03-23-10_2UHSA36_v62.37bfa0a.html

"The family said Hart had a broken jaw, broken eye socket and torn knuckles. After speaking with the state medical examiner, Corkery said, the family wanted a second autopsy, but were told by a pathologist in Massachusetts that it wouldn’t be possible."

The preliminary autopsy showed Hart was “highly intoxicated,” Campbell said, but he declined to reveal the blood-alcohol level until remaining tests are completed. The medical examiner also told the police that there was no evidence Hart had been in a fight or any “physical altercation” before ending up in the river, said Campbell.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Brittany L. Hammond & Laurie

The ME can tell if injuries sustained to the body happened before or after death. If there was one thing that was released from the autopsy, I would like it to be that, whether or not the injuries were sustained before or after death.

Laurie said...

boy,

I have the qualifications to be an ME and I probably make more than most of them do.

Trust me on this. They are clueless.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Laurie,

C'mon Laurie, you should know that generalization is not true.

All that matters is that currently you are not a ME. If you want to make a change, then why not become one?

BoyintheMachine said...

I just read the update so it looks like the ME ruled the injuries to have been postmortem.

cherish said...

Does anyone know if the bartenders name was made available in any of the news articles? Some of the comments I read stated he left town. In an actual news article, it reported that the bartender said Gregory was involved in a fight and was thrown out of the bar. I am amazed that this information would be over looked when Gregory's friend was the eye witness who said he rose from the table without saying a word and left the bar out the front door. No one thinks it's blatantly obvious from the bartenders statement that he could have possibly made that statement to explain injuries that Gregory would later be found sustaining?Now... the bartender is no where to be found?

I am also a bit frustrated because I had read a news article which included a statement from Gregory's grandfather, questioning why Greg's cell phone continued to ring and then go to voicemail if it was already under water. Now, when I try to retrieve that article I find it has been updated and the grandfathers comment has been omitted. I also noticed that the past reader comments are gone and only comments railing the family are available to read.

The only proof I have now of the grandfathers remark in the article is the reference to a readers comment that can no longer be viewed even if you go to the web address that is posted.

Google: grandpa Hart question how a cell phone could ring under water

(you'll see what I mean)

I also wanted to mention that one of the "tag" words associated with Gregory Hart should be the word EAGLE. The police thought that Gregory fell off the eagle bridge.

Monique777 said...

@Cherish

It might be possible to get the article that has been removed on the web by contacting the paper. Also, try to keep in mind the media can misreport events and comments made can be discrepant. I had read it was the bouncer that left town to go to New York and did read the bartender said Greg was in a fight and tossed out.

As for the ME report, I thought it possible Greg sustained trauma by falling off the bridge into the river. In this scenario Greg would have been alive with the injuries until he drowned but the ME has ruled this out saying the trauma was postmortem.

I am still wondering why the family didn't get a 2nd autopsy even if they had to resort to a private pathologist. The family seems convinced Greg was murdered and a 2nd autopsy may have provided crucial evidence for their case. Now they are left with one ME report ruling the drowning accidental which doesn't leave much of a case for them. In one report they offered $70K to a person who had info. about Greg's death. Money would not seem an issue for a 2nd autopsy. This just doesn't make sense.

Laurie said...

http://www.topix.com/forum/sports/TGB6S1Q0F52G657FJ


Tenneguy wrote:
Here is an ad for a job as medical examiner in Lacrosse in case any one is interested.. Experts need not apply. Wisconsin does not require a medical examiner be a forensic pathologist or Physician.
DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER On Call La Crosse County Medical Examiner has vacancy to be on call. Responds to death calls, observes the scene, questions witnesses, examines evidence, collects laboratory specimens, verifies death, notifies next of kin. Must be available 1 weekend/month and for call in on weekdays. Requires: 2 yrs. training in nursing, medical technology, chemistry, biology, medicine, pre-med, paramedic, EMT, criminal justice, police science or related field;

Laurie said...

Boy,

I have actually gone out on calls with the coroner and made suggestions
as to how to collect evidence.
That coroner was elected and had no medical training whatsoever.
He served as the ME in that part of that state.

Monique,

If you think bruised fists, a broken jaw, and an orbital injury are from a fall into a river, well
I don't know what to say.

Someone needs to do some research into the cost of an investigation for a serial killer.
I am guessing the stonewalling and ignoring of evidence is all about the current economy.

Monique777 said...

@ Laurie

There is a difference between deputy ME and the ME. The deputy may assist the ME at autopsy but does not perform an autopsy alone. An ME must be a physician, usually a pathologist.

Some jurisdictions still use coroners which is an elected position. A coroner can be a sheriff or a local farmer. Many coroners are being replaced by medical examiners, but in rural areas where murder is an uncommon event, they may elect to use a coroner.

Monique777 said...

It was possible the trauma to Greg's body came from a fall off the bridge but the ME has now ruled this out for us.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Laurie

That's a Deputy Medical Examiner. They assist Medical Examiners.

FYI: A Deputy Medical Examiner is just another way of saying "Coroner Investigator". These are the people that assist the Coronor/Medical Examiner. They usually do NOT do the autopsies and I don't think any degree is needed for these positions, but I might be mistaken.

However, in some small communities the Deputy ME might due autopsies if they have the qualifications with the ME being like the head boss over the Deputy MEs. I may be wrong but I think one must be at least a Doctor to be able to perform autopsies. No joe off of the street is going to be able to fill out an application and start cutting people up.

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Laurie

Coroners are not the same thing as Medical Examiners.

Laurie said...

Yes, thank you both. I work in the field, but be aware that in some rural communities, what you have said is not true at all.
It really depends on the state and
what the general area can afford.

Laurie said...

Also I found this link to share -

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pathology-1640/drowning-question.htm

"States with the highest drowning rate are Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Oregon, and Florida."

Monique777 said...

@Laurie

You look silly assisting a coroner if you have the qualifications to be an ME. MDs don't typically assist a coroner. Buy hey-your choice.

Laurie said...

Cherish,

I did that google and one of the comment was this one -

"Have you seen the barrier you'd have to clear to fall in? Its about 5 feet high. The lead detective in the case was the owner of the building the bar was in (per projo's version of the police timeline). They claim it was not a conflict of interest because the officer was trained in missing persons. Even if nothing is wrong it was still handled about as poorly as you'd expect from the PPD"

I thought it was interesting because in a previous writing
someone had said the wall was about six feet tall.


39820429

Laurie said...

Monique,

I sure am lucky you are here to help me out with these things.
I'll have to go double check my
degree and job title to be sure
I am in the right place.

PS Going out with the coroner that time was for the heck of it..but thanks for explaining it to me.

Monique777 said...

Monique,

If you think bruised fists, a broken jaw, and an orbital injury are from a fall into a river, well
I don't know what to say.


Are you being serious? Falling from a high bridge onto a surface, whether it's water or concrete will break bones-mandibles, orbitals, femurs and what not.

Monique777 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laurie said...

"On March 25, the medical examiner addressed Mr. Hart's concerns about injuries found on Gregory Hart's body, stating that any injuries found occurred after he had drowned."

Do you think he drowned before or after the fall? Hmm, which one would be classified as post mortem?

Monique777 said...

@Laurie

Okay, we usually don't discuss our degrees here but if you are a physician trained in this field, I'll take your word for it.

May I ask what your idea is on why the MASS ME wouldn't do the 2nd autopsy on Greg Hart? The pathologist declned and wonder if you have any ideas on this.

Monique777 said...

If Greg fell from the bridge, sustaining his injuries and remained alive long enough to drown wouldn't these be antemortem injuries? I ask this seriously.

Monique777 said...

This would seem to rule out a fall from the bridge which the police say is where he entered the river. Then the question becomes, how did he really get into the river.

And I didn't see your quote before I posted. I would not mock you for not knowing something I have a degree in. Why get nasty about it.

Laurie said...

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/18/second-autopsy-finds-iam-tomlinson-died-of-internal-bleeding-not-a-heart-attack-attacking-officer-is-now-under-investigation-for-manslaughter/

"Now, a second autopsy has shown that Tomlinson did not die from a heart attack but internal bleeding"

http://www.nospank.net/n-q03r.htm

"The findings of Dr. Vernard Adams's autopsy on Martin Lee Anderson conflict with the results of the initial one by Dr. Charles Siebert, the medical examiner for Bay County. He ruled the boy died had a natural death from complications of sickle cell trait, a usually benign blood disorder many blacks have.

``Martin Anderson's death was caused by suffocation due to actions of the guards at the boot camp,'' Adams wrote in a statement. He said the suffocation was caused by hands blocking the boy's mouth, as well as the ``forced inhalation of ammonia fumes'' that caused his vocal cords to spasm, blocking his upper airway."

So just imagine, if you can, how these professionals, and BITM, pay attention here too - went from a heart attack to internal hemorrhage
and from sickle cell to suffocation.

It is truly mind-boggling, is it not?
And I just pulled these up by googling "second autopsy" and
ignoring the celebrity stuff.

Now do you still think that what any ME, whatever their qualifications, releases to the public is even worth the time to
discuss it?
And especially in Providence, wow, I was reading about police there running cocaine, having sex on the job in the park,
etc.

Check this link out, for instance

http://www.therhody.com/rhodeisland_news/task,showcat/cat,Daily+RI+News/

Ok, I rest my case.
And I never said I had an MD and I don't want to talk about that anymore in a public forum.

Laurie said...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/23/illinois.drew.peterson/index.html

"The initial autopsy report concluded that she died as the result of an accidental drowning.

Second autopsy result was homicide.
Go figure.


http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2007/03/charmer.aspx

"Initial cause of death as determined by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak, was the result of falling asleep on a railroad track after smoking marijuana on August 23, 1987
Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks
The FBI has investigated this crime and the case remains open."

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=261481

There is more and more of this out there. Just do some google searches.

Laurie said...

Oh wait, one more comment.
How about Chris Jenkins?
What happened there, anyway?
First an accident, then a homicide,
but **NOT** because of the ME or any evidence at the scene.

Laurie said...

Have you seen the updated BAC report for Craig Meyers? Went down quite a bit from the initial urine result they plastered all over the news..

In short the urine result was quite a bit higher/more than he actually had on board, but I wonder who will see the update - a small paragraph in the news after the fact now?

And finally I hope everyone reading this has read what Jan Jenkins and Sally Zamlen have said about the discrepancies between what was reported and what they knew happened.
Also an apparent family member of one of the other young men on another forum said something very
frightening about how things had been twisted by the police to sound very different.

What seems clear to me is that there is a great deal of coverup
and corruption involved in this entire thing.
So much so that when the ME says
"no foul play" I say to myself -
Sure. Right.

I hope that has made my case...

BoyintheMachine said...

@ Laurie

From what I read, the urine test always gives higher results. That's why they don't rely exclusively on it.

cherish said...

I realize that comments made at the end of a news article aren't necessarily reliable but I am hoping the family does have a second medical opinion.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2010/03/gregory-harts-family-meets-wit.html

David said:
I know a close friend of the family who says the second autopsy report the family got done showed Greg had a broken cheek bone and eye socket and multiple bruises and cuts to the face, his blood alcohol level wasn't even two times the legal limit and the report also stated that he had been in the water for 10-24 hours.But wasn't he supposed to have drowned in the river 2 days prior? explain that

Link | March 26, 2010 11:22 AM
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janx said...

The family didn't have a second autopsy:
http://www.projo.com/news/content/hart_death_23_03-23-10_2UHSA36_v62.37bfa0a.html

The Medical Examiner reports that x-rays show that the body did not have some of the more extensive injuries the family claims.
"The police chief said the medical examiner told the family that x-rays showed that Hart didn’t have a broken jaw, or broken skull, or broken knuckles."
http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content/hart_death_26_03-26-10_MDHTB1D_v62.37c057a.html

It seems that the family is basing their reports of broken this and broken that on their own desire for this to have been a murder.

@Laurie, to be an ME in Rhode Island one must be a board certified Pathologist (MD or DO), have completed a Forensic Pathology Fellowship and be eligible for the Forensic Pathology board exam.

Laurie said...

"Speaking to stunned reporters at a news conference, Minneapolis Chief of Police Tim Dolan said, "Sometimes we make mistakes. In this case, we made a mistake."

That was from the Chris Jenkins case. It was FOUR years after Chris died.

So maybe there were x-rays and maybe not. Who really knows?
Especially in Providence where corruption among police seems to be the norm.

Laurie said...

Stanley Milgram must be rolling over in his grave.

Monique777 said...

Thanks Janx,

It did strike me as unusual the family spoke of his injuries yet the ME declined to comment. We have not seen this happen with these drowning deaths.

Also, it was surprising Greg would not get a second autopsy with these injuries present-especially a private autopsy if the MA ME would not do one.I would have thought the family would have insisted on a 2nd autopsy yet they did not and went through with the buriel.

It may have been a he said she said type thing. Maybe it started as a bruised eye and cut on his chin to a broken orbital and broken jaw. But I guess we'll never really know for sure but at least it makes more sense why a 2nd autopsy wasn't performed.

Karing said...

Still no news on the investigation by the PPD. Seems their Police Dept. has alot of problems within. Can they really do their job??

Karing said...

Seems like the Providence Police are having a hard time investigating this case...or are they?? There is alot of problems within their own Police Dept. with officers being arrested for coccaine ring, raping and beating other people. There are certainly alot of discrepancies. So what is being done?

Monique777 said...

ABC News Investigation-The Death of Gregory Hart:
-strange stains on his clothing
-Iphone was shattered
-his "friends" would not accept an interview with the news

http://ww.abc6.com/Global/story.asp?S=12397158

2 part video released on April 30, 2010.
The Harts have hired a lawyer to investigate Greg's death.

Investigate said...

The Red Room is less than a mile from The Living Room night club in Providence, RI, where victim John Pike, 23, drummer for up-and-coming Syracuse indie rock band Ra Ra Riot performed the night before he disappeared near Fairhaven, Massachusetts on Saturday, June 2, 2007 after attending a late night afterparty with a fellow band member.

According to Fairhaven Police Department Chief Gary F. Souza, "There were a number of people who saw him leave the party," Souza said. "In my understanding, they didn't believe he was leaving for a great amount of time, that he was just stepping outside."

His body was discovered in Buzzard's Bay, less than a mile from where he was last seen, the following day.


----------------------
Pike played a gig at The Living Room, a Providence, RI night club on Friday 6/1, then attended a late night afterparty at 19 Nakata Avenue in Fairhaven, MA (in an area called Sconticut Neck) with a fellow band member who lives in Fairhaven.

Pike was last seen at the party around 3 A.M. (June 2). "He just disappeared from the party after the show," a band spokesperson confirmed to SPIN.com.

Who was at the show in The Living Room who might have spoken to him and known where he was headed? Who was at The Red Room and could have spoken to Greg Hart?

This cannot be a coincidence. Are the FBI involved in these investigations? If not, WHY NOT?!

Lisa said...

I had no idea that The Red Room and The Living Room were so close to each other. I wonder if, perhaps, the latter is also a police-owned bar? Either way, a possible connection between Hart and Pike should be investigated.

I never could understand how Pike, who was reportedly afraid of water, would go anywhere near the bay at that time of night, let alone get close enough to accidentally fall in! As with so many of these cases, there are just too many unanswered questions that defy logic.

And sadly, I have not heard that the FBI is investigating any of these cases. But they should be!

Karing said...

Interesting in the news today. The family had the cell phone investigated and the cell phone was never in the water. Check out NECN and Fox News. Article in the Boston Globe today. Alot of conflicting stories. Why doesn't the FBI get involved. They had gone to the FBI before but they only take cases referred by the Providence Police Dept. Why are they not giving it to the FBI??? Now the family says the police could be involve???a cop owns the bar...another owns all the property (bar and surrounding buildings) Is it the police???
Why no investigation...conflicting reports etc.Who do you go to to find Justice??

BoyintheMachine said...

Where there any off-duty police officers working there as bouncers that night? -Remember the dangers of the sleep-hold.

tfbenjamin said...

It sure sounds like some police involvement in this death. I hope the family can get to the truth. Greg most certainly was a great guy. Hoping the perps get a life sentence for this heinous act.

dan said...

i was one of the kids looking for him, i love how no reports mention how his friends girlfriend who they were with that night (whose house his car was parked outside of in providence) was caught by a group of my friends TEARING THE MISSING SIGNS DOWN... simple case here : police reports say the phone was in water and that it was found in the back, we searched the back it was never there and it was never in the water, it came back in pieces where no data could be retrieved.... the call to his friend which was his last call was most likely made by his friend trying to cover up wat happend.... his undershirt was dry and his body wasnt waterlogged, he wasnt in the water for long... and he had broken cheekbones, and many other injuries so the state ME is obviously lying... the 2 cops that investigated 1 owns the property and the others wife is the manager... u wudnt have to cross that river it is over a 5 foot fence that he cudnt just fall into he had to climb, regardless HE WASNT IN THE WATER FOR VERY LONG HIS UNDERSHIRT WAS DRY WHEN FOUND.... his 2 friends he was with would not search for him with us, they said they got a ride back by a pizza delivery man instead of a taxi, no interview was done with the bartender or anyone and theres stories that he "just got up and walked out" and that "he was in a "disturbance" and was thrown out" .. i mean come on this isnt rocket science here

karen said...

Amazed at the people here who are Proessionals, and feel the right to undermine the ME of PVD. My was a CSI for the city o Boston, and accompanied many ME's in cases, yes, through the autopsy, yes they take pictures. States evidence, this is where your controversy comes from, in the media, not in the Investigation. Homework, PVD is a highly acclaimed underground area....and truth be told anything can happen........So many questions,the answers may never come to fruition.....And the FBI, write the bureau a letter if they feel like there is a lead, they will be there.......This is an unfortunate case,and the proof of burden lays on the parents. Logically, the riends should be your prime comcern after all they arent talking,curious dont you agree....hmmmm...simple

bulldg9099 said...

Karen the burden of proof is the parents responsibility ? Really? And just because someone holds a title it doesn't make them honest or professional.

bulldg9099 said...

The friends aren't talking? One is in the Air Force stationed in Wyoming. The other kids have disappeared off the face of the earth. Why haven't the police talked to them? Isn't that their job? It's the parents job? Hope you never have childen.

do it for Greg said...

I think its pretty funny how everyone sees that Greg was a victim of crime except for Karen here? how dare you even post a comment like that. I hope you don't have any children, because if you can be so cold over this whole case then you have no compassion in your heart at all. Cold and heartless Karen is what you are.Don't put your opinions anywhere near any stories Greg Hart.

CyPhy said...

My comments pertain to the "News" section: "Research brief challenges Smiley Face Killer Theory"

I am always amazed at the common threads with these Young Men Drowning.

The paper referenced above was written by "The Center for Homicide Research." Why? What interest do they have in this? More to the point, what interest do they have in trying to persuade people that the SFK is a myth?

Looking more closely at "The Center for Homicide Research," one finds that they are based in Minneapolis, and were founded in 1999 as The Minnesota Gay Homicide Study.

So now this paper and this organization are looking pretty fishy. The are located at the absolute epicenter of the SFK phenomenon, they previously had a mission to study gay homicides, and now, seemingly inexplicably, they want to insert themselves in the SFK debate.

There seem to be some powerful interests in the Twin Cities that are trying to use the media, by way of a self-proclaimed "Center for Homicide Research," to convince the general public that anyone who thinks these drownings are suspicious are just wacky conspiracy theorists.

Lisa said...

Great point, CyPhy. Another reader and I were just e-mailing about the brief. She noticed that the brief had some areas in which it suffered from observational bias or wasn't purely objective.

Karing said...

I am interested in this case because it has so many flaws and cover ups in our legal system. At first on the blog I did consider SFK. However, after contact with Kevin Gannon and discussion of all detail.
He rules this out completely. This WAS NOT a SMK attempt. Now the information on the cell phone...finding the phone was not in the water. What is going on??? If a cop tells you something...do you believe them??? This points at the credibility of the Police.
Hats off to the family to persue what they really believe. Justice should prevail for this family.
This is America.

Karing said...

I am interested in this case because it has so many flaws and cover ups in our legal system. At first on the blog I did consider SFK. However, after contact with Kevin Gannon and discussion of all detail.
He rules this out completely. This WAS NOT a SFK attempt. Now the information on the cell phone...finding the phone was not in the water. What is going on??? If a cop tells you something...do believe what he says??? "Phone was in the water." Hats off to the family for persuing what they believed. What goes on in Providence??? This is America and what has happened to the Justice System. Don't they investigate and why is the FBI not in there.

Harry said...

I realize my comments have come considerably later than the last entry on this thread. I just watched the YouTube video thru my FB page and was moved to research and read some background articles of the story.
I find it very interesting that at each level of movement, Gregory Hart from the time of entering the Red Tavern, to the finding of his body seems to be entangled with so many discrepancies along the lines of authority. Policemen operate and work at the bar, others write reports that are misrepresenting facts and evidence is purposely damaged, or misplaced. Leads and witnesses aren't followed-up with. PEOPLE, we are talking about the PROVIDENCE POLICE DEPARTMENT!! Trust me, what went on in the 70's and 80's still goes on today. It happened to a friend of mine's sister in Woonsocket in the early 80's. She was murdered by 2 Woonsocket Police Officers who were doing things Police Officers are supposed to protect the public from. The "family" is still very active in RI. annon ....

Karing said...

I am still following this story in the news and there is more information. Terrible for the family and there are still no answers. I hope they find the answers and Justice is served.See these links
The Murder of Gregory Hart and the Providence Police Department Cover-Up
www.change.org

Karing said...

Still following this story of this poor kid. Found this video on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxSbUeFQfk Google Gregory Hart. Made by We the People of R.I. Even the people in R.I know there is something wrong in this case. Video puts this whole blog into a different perspective. So sad that nothing has been done. Paper work is just filed away with the hope that someone will confess someday. Where is the Justice in today's corrupt society?? So sad that nothing has been done to find Justice for this kid....and now to become an Unsolved Crime to people...but totally dismissed by the Justice System because of their involvement. Greg, you will never be forgotten by all of those whose life you touched.

Sandra said...

This is really intriguing article. No records or witness, just theories and coincidences. I'm following this story.. Where are you, Greg.

---
Medisoft

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James Drew said...

HUGE COVERUP - LOOKS LIKE THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT TOO. PROVIDENCE POLICE ARE PERHAPS THE MOST CORRUPT IN THE COUNTRY. THEY ARE BEST KNOWN FOR RAPE, DRUG DEALING, AND BEATING HANDCUFFED SUSPECTS INTO COMAS !! IF ANYONE THINKS GREG THREW HIMSELF OVER A 5 FOOT FENCE INTO THE RIVER BELOW, I HAVE SOME MOUNTAINSIDE LAND IN FLORIDA TO SELL.

BTW - IT WAS RUMOURED THAT HE WAS SEEN BEING LOADED INTO THE BACK OF A POLICE CAR BEHIND THE BAR. THE POLICE HAD THE IPHONE THE WHOLE TIME BECAUSE IT PROBABLY FELL OUT IN THE BACK OF THE CAR. ONE MORE TIDBIT - THAT PART OF THE RIVER IS NOT FAST MOVING WATER; INFACT IT BARELY MOVES AT ALL. IT'S ONLY ABOUT 2 FEET DEEP AND IS A TIDAL TRIBUTARY TO THE PROVIDENCE RIVER. THE WATER MOVES VERY, VERY SLOWLY, AND WOULD NEVER MOVE A BODY ENOUGH TO CAUSE BROKEN BONES OR TEETH. IM SURPRISED THE ME EVEN PUT THAT LINE OF BULLSHIT IN HIS REPORT. BTW - THE R.I. ME'S OFFICE IS PROBABLY THE ONLY AGENCY LESS TRUSTWORTHY THAN THE PROVIDENCE POLICE !!!!!!!

Karing said...

I have been following this blog and where is justice. Does anyone ever investigate these things. Greg Hart was found 6 years ago next month. More young men have gone missing. Now another goes missing in Boston again.

James Drew said...

Very sad case. No question police were involved in his murder. I think they got away with it because short of someone coming forward, which will never happen, I don't think there is any way to prove it, any DNA transfer would be washed away. The Providence Police are some real bad actors. I know for a fact they used to beat the hell out of people, stuff them in the trunk, and dump them in the local cemetery .

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